Grassley targets six Pentecostal ministries:
April 18, 2008
Senator Grassley, a Baptist, has targeted six Pentecostal ministries, demanding that they turn over to him every credit card receipt for the last five years. He has also demanded that at least one of the ministries provide him with the names and addresses of every person or group of persons who has ever spoken or performed music in his church for remuneration over the last forty years.
An End to Popular Christian Television? A new religious McCarthyism?
“What Do You Have to Hide?”
By Doug Wead
This is the rallying cry of First Amendment opponents who suggest that the truly innocent need not fear.
But history is replete with people of sincere political or religious conviction who have seized the levers of power and used them to destroy those of opposing views. Even modern American history has seen what a powerful Senator can do to people foolish enough to trust him with all of their personal history. In the McCarthy hearings hundreds of private citizens waived their constitutional rights, volunteering everything in the belief that their innocence would protect them, only to see lives and careers publicly destroyed forever. It may be happening again.
Throughout history seismic shifts have occurred, revolutions, sometimes political, sometimes religious, and millions have died. During the great plagues of the Middle Ages, aroused Christians blamed the Jews and massive pogroms resulted in the wholesale slaughter of entire communities. Sometimes these powerful shifts occurred within one family. Queen Mary ascended the throne of England and Protestants were killed. Her sister Elizabeth succeeded her and the Catholics were persecuted instead. From country to country and sovereign to sovereign, anything could happen. People hardly knew how to live in anticipation of the next shift.
The American founders started something new. They not only wrote a constitution, whose First Amendment protected the press and religion, they established a Bill of Rights for citizens too.
Today, America is strangely complacent about these rights. If allowing the government to listen in on our telephones or sift through our e-mails will help catch a terrorist, then why not? What do we have to hide?
But history has shown that governments, in the hands of the powerful, can be capricious and unjust in their prosecution. Cardinal Richelieu once boasted, “Give me four lines written by any man and I can have him tried as a criminal.” When government decides guilt it can surely prove it and the target is helpless. Innocence is no guarantee against a resolute prosecution. Indeed, the greater the investment of time and resources the more certain the conviction, if for political-economic reasons alone.
One of the more compelling stories in All the Presidents’ Children, gives the account of Michael Reagan, the president’s son. Michael exchanged an item in a store one day and his accompanying Secret Service guards misunderstood. They thought he had shoplifted and the message traveled along the Secret Service telegraph for several years until his father finally confronted him. Michael was devastated. It took months to clear the matter and when it was over Michael asked his father, why he hadn’t believed him in the first place?
“Well,” President Reagan offered sadly, “They saved my life, son, I trusted them.”
If a president’s son can be the target of injustice, any ordinary citizen is certainly vulnerable.
Our founding fathers wanted a government that had checks and balances. It wanted to avoid injustice. And the system put in place seemed to be a remarkable improvement on anything yet seen. But even then, it did not work perfectly. Huge numbers of Americans were slaves. And modern DNA is showing how glaringly flawed our justice system continues to be.
Nor has a guarantee of religious freedom always worked. America has experienced periods of rampant religious persecution. Jews, Mormons, Catholics have all been targets. As late as the 1920’s six “Know Nothings” were elected to the United States congress as essentially the party of anti-Catholic bigots.
This is at the heart of the concern of Baptist Senator Grassley’s investigation of six Pentecostal ministries, Joyce Meyers, Creflo Dollar, Eddie Long, Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn. Grassley, a Baptist, has not named any ministries from his own church denomination. Even ministries that preach the same things and have more extravagant lifestyles are exempt if their heads have Baptist ordination.
Baptists, who see Pentecostals and Charismatics as doctrinally flawed, and who only a generation ago taught that many of them were actually demon possessed, have long chafed under the popularity of the Pentecostal-Charismatic television outreach. Since the 1970’s Pentecostal and Charismatic television ministries have dominated the Nielsen ratings. And it has been reflected by the shifts in American society. Today, according to the Pew Research Foundation numbers of denominational Pentecostals alone match Southern Baptists and when Charismatics are added, defined as traditional Christians believing in a supernatural “Baptism of the Holy Spirit,” which include so called Catholic Charismatics, they now number close to 28% of the American population. (A recent Barna Survey puts the total number at 23%.) It is a staggering number but it explains why television habits of the American people persist. Pentecostal ministries can be toppled by scandal or in one case even taken over by Baptist leadership and others only reemerge to take their place.
But so what? If they are truly innocent, why not let their doctrinal enemies take a look and see what they want? What do they have to hide? For the same reason that major newspapers and television networks will not let the public look and see what they want.
Almost all major newspapers and television networks have stringent security rules. You enter their buildings only with photo identification and add your signature to a signup sheet in a lobby where an armed guard stands vigilant. You slap a paper, bar-coded I.D., to your lapel and wait patiently for someone to escort you to the elevator and to the right floor. You cannot just wander the halls. You cannot rifle through a reporters’ desk, explaining that you want to see his sources in case they are lying or misleading them.
The First Amendment is a wonderful thing. It allows the media the dignity and time to refine its newsgathering and writing and research without fearing that the government or some enemy will pull information out of context and release it publically without explanation.
The same security and rights are accorded the U. S. Senate. They too have security. They too will not let you see what you want. They too know that information pulled out of context can be misleading and can be used to harm. The president cannot send armed guards into the Senate to take documents nor can the courts.
What does the media have to hide? What does the Senate have to hide? They have a right to hide from abusive and intrusive power that interferes with their right to do their work under the constitution.
There are thousands of ministries and religious organizations. Many of these organizations have leaders far more wealthy than Grassley’s six, and some enjoy lifestyles far greater. They all have homes large and small, owned by the ministry or owned personally by their pastors who get parsonage allowances. Some have schools, some have jets, some have tennis courts and indoor swimming pools, some even have hotels. Some own large acreage in the middle of city centers, acreage that is worth more than all of the assets of all six of Grassley’s targets combined. Some have tapestries on the wall worth more than the homes that the networks will fly over in their helicopter videos when their attacks begin. Why isn’t there a fair way to sort all of this out? To determine what is honest or no? To determine which salary is justified and matches the doctrines preached and which salaries and compensation packages don’t?
Ahh, but you see, there is. Such a system is already in place. And over the years it has been refined by the congress and the presidents and the courts. It has all of this down to a fine science. It is the Internal Revenue Service. This agency is tasked with sorting out all of this. It may confirm, for example, that salary to a religious leader be determined by a “compensation board” which is not influenced by those who receive the pay. And ironically, all audits of religious organizations are guided by rules that Senator Grassley authored himself.
So what’s the problem? Well, the problem is that two of the six ministries he is publically attacking have just experienced an exhaustive audit by the IRS and were given a clean bill of health! A third has recently hand delivered a letter to the IRS, asking them to conduct an audit of their organization.
Since the IRS cannot do what the Senator wants, he has decided that as a one man, prosecutor, trial and jury he, himself, will take out the six ministries that have coincidently been the doctrinal nemesis of his own church for the last century. He has told us that he has been mulling this over for two years. He knows that what the courts and prosecutors and evidence and fairness can’t do, demagoguery can accomplish. He knows this because he has a powerful ally, the media.
Grassley knows that the media hates all religions. (Except some selected white Protestant brands, traditional favorites of elderly stockholders now in their Connecticut retirement and still possessing some small influence on their investments.) The media tends to hate Catholics, Evangelicals, Mormons, and any and all off beat brands like the Church of Scientology, etc. So he will spoon feed the story to his media sidekicks, who are chomping at the bit over these few ministries who have been culled from the herd and are thus vulnerable to attack.
It is nothing personal for the media. It is show business and food. They would just as easily pounce on Senator Grassley’s own Baptists and eat them as well. He knows that and is willing to risk it to get rid of some doctrinal enemies. Besides the herd will just move on to the next watering hole, a little safer now that the media lions have been sated.
And how does the Media feel about being used to settle a doctrinal score? They don’t even bat an eyelash. All religious belief is a blurr to them. And programming is just formula. They have already sent helicopters over the house of one ministry touting it as a mansion from the sky, not pointing out to their viewers that the preacher doesn’t actually own the house they are showing, the ministry does, nor pointing out the obvious, that “the mansion,” which sits in steamy, sultry Texas, has no swimming pool and is built on acres of land that is worth less than a quarter lot in New York, Boston, or Los Angeles. But boy does it look awesome from a helicopter and it has lots of square feet. So it will work for the story and the public will all feel the appropriate outrage because they will not know the other side.
So popular religious television, as we know it today, is in jeopardy. One man, with a savvy understanding of the media and the power of religious bigotry and how to use it to his own advantage will see to that. And why? Why is he doing this? Because he is sincere. Because he truly believes that he is right and his doctrines are right and the others are wrong. He is doing this to protect all of those dumb people who are too foolish to understand the false doctrines they have embraced. He is doing this for their own good. He is saving them from hell.
And when he has brought down all of their television programs and they have all renounced their fanciful ideas about healing and feeling healthy and having a better lifestyle now, in this world, instead of waiting for eternity, when they have accepted that poverty is a virtue to be relished with humility and sickness a blessing to be savored, then he will leave them alone for awhile but he will be watching. From his perch in the United States Senate, he will be watching.
Read “Kenneth Copeland’s Jet”
http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/04/12/kenneth-copelands-jet/
Read “People in Grassley Houses Shouldn’t Throw Stones”
http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/people-in-grassley-houses-shouldnt-throw-stones/
Weird things are happening these days. Why should an observant Jew be thrown off the plane for his prayers, AFTER he finished them and after his friends explained he would be through in 2 minutes? What kind of an idiot would do that? And what is going on with a senate investigation of six Pentecostals? Weren’t there any Popemobiles he could investigate? Why does he have the scope to do this? It feels like SEnator McCarthy way back in the 1950’s, when everybody got too scared to stand up for himself, just making it easy to persecute others. Don’t let it happen again.
It’s a matter of constitutional protection. Separation of church and state. That’s what Thomas Jefferson and the other founding fathers planned on, and what we have cherished over the centuries.
I can’t believe the ACLU hasn’t been making big noises about this.
I say abolish the non-profit tax exemption. History shows again and again that churches and charities skim exorbitant amounts from donor contribution coffers for unnecessary “administrative” expenses.
A church leader with non-profit status has no business flying in a leased personal jet.
And, while we are at it, let’s take a look at how some ministries have been attacked with lies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu82W0o4200. Just in case anyone is under the naive impression that what we see on television and read in the newspaper is always, absolutely, positively correct.
What church leaders were like when I grew up:
They were humble and believed in living frugally, as frugally as a majority of their blue collar, working class parishioners. The only perk they got was perhaps a house owned by the church for them to live in during their tenure as pastor. They ate and dressed no better than most of their parishioners and didn’t believe in drawing undue personal attention to themselves. They expected to lead as clean and decent a life as everyone else, otherwise, they would have been disgraced and shunned without hesitation. This went for everyone in the community. Everyone was held to the same behavioral and moral standard.
These days, too many so-called men and women of the cloth are addicted to the spotlight. They live like rajahs and forget the real purpose of a ministry. They have no connection to the community they are appointed to serve other than a $$$ connection.
It’s a real shame. This Copeland thing is just another example. Copeland, et. al., may be fine ministers, but there’s something wrong with how they seem to run their ministries.
What is wrong with our country? When those who are obedient to God are blessed by Him, somehow we’ve decided that there should be a limit to the amount of financial blessings each of us should receive. It’s unfortunate that some feel justified in determining how much blessing is too much. My hope is that the Lord will bless these 6 ministries as well as any others that are under unjust scrutiny and government persecution with double for all the trouble they’ve been burdened with. As long as they are obedient, doing what the Lord says for them to do in their ministries, let Him send down overflowing blessings to them all.
So Shelley, you’re absolutely sure they’re being obedient?
You, too, seem to need a refresher on the US Tax Code, subsection 501.
Mr. Copeland, et al, can live as high on the hog as they wish, just require that they give up their free tax exemptions and pay something like the rest of us.
Excuse me; preachers have to pay income tax just like the rest of us….
Mr. Black, You seem to be extremely angry against men and women that preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I think that is very sad. How many times have you sat in their meetings, or gone to their Churches? Four of those ministries have done more for my family in what they teach than I could ever repay. My family has been healed and my life saved several times because of what I have learned from them and followed what they said. I can’t count how many times the Word of God has rescued us financially and we would not have known how to lean on the Word of God if it had not been for these ministries. Tell me, Mr. Black, are you saying my family is not worth the price to be healed and healthy; or our financially stability worth anything? And why shouldn’t the people in Nigeria, Russia, China and other very poor countries know this truth? Which they are learning because these six are teaching them! And why aren’t the black people in this Nation suppose to know they don’t have to live in poverty, they can have good jobs and happy marriages and secure children - which is what these ministries are teaching! And how about if Senator Grassley demands all the private information from you - how comfortable would you feel???
didn’t we leave England because of religious persecution. How about the state reps seperating from the church business and start taking care of the country’s business. Seems to me there are more scams going on in congress than anywhere else
those of us who know the word of GOD know that persecutions and hate come with the terriritory. they did it to JESUS and the word says to count it all joy when your persecuted for his sake and the gospels. our job is to pray for those who dispitefully use or persecute us. the love of the God covers a multitude of sin and where sin abounds …grace does much more abound. write your senators, and voice your concerns re: our religious freedoms being challenged. and don’t ever forget……this government is by the people and for the people….don’t like whats going on up there on the Hill….vote um out of office. our prayers to our God will be answered. Praise God.
Cricket:
Demanding financial accountability is tantamount to hatred? When?
Do you know what this sounds like? This is exactly the same rhetoric used by the Left when minorities and others within their constituency are criticized.
The path to success and fortune comes from within. I think it’s sad that many people do not possess enough personal resolve and self-reliance to figure out how to solve their own problems and survive.
It doesn’t come from collecting outside donations and feathering your own nest.
Oh, David - depending on God is not having enough personal resolve or self-reliance within. It’s knowing there is never going to be enough wisdom inside yourself to solve all that comes into your life without the Living God who loves us so much.
Now, where did I say demanding financial accountability is tantamount to hatred? I believe financial accountability goes right in line with your integrity. That’s why two of the ministries had already passed the test with the IRS and got 100’s; and a third asked the IRS to do an audit. The other three will follow with similar type actions, I’m sure.
Do I believe in financial accountability - far more than you know, but I believe the very ones who putting on the pressure and making all these illegal demands need to prove their own honesty and integrity before they demand it of others. These Senators have a great deal to prove to the American people, which they are not.
And it comes back to a question I have Mr. Wead say (which is not a quote). Why these six and not ministries that live far more extravagantly - in fact outlandishly so. And why six with the same doctrinal beliefs that Senator Grassley’s religious affiliations oppose so adamantly? That is far more of a concern to me because it shouts religious persecution. Where does the good Senator stop - they are already attacking Presidential “museums’ (forgive me, I can’t remember what they are called). What’s next?
Mr. Black, I pray God’s best for you in all ways.
JB and Mary - boy are you both right on! I hope you are both sounding that alarm all over the place. What do any of you think of this? I was thinking the people who need to begin calling Senator Grassley are the Baptists themselves. The media is not going to stop their frenzy when this stops. Their going to want to go after more - so why not the Baptists? What do you think?
My husband and I have been partners with Joyce Meyer Ministries, one of the six ministries being targeted by Senator Grassley, for 9 years. We also recently became partners with Kenneth Copeland Ministries.
For those of you who may not be aware, both of these ministers started preaching the Word of faith , including the prosperity scriptures, when they themselves where poor. Joyce Meyer began preaching in a barrowed suit, and driving a 20 year old car, and had to sleep in McDonald’s parking lots because she could not afford a motel room. The Copelands started off so broke that they didn’t even have any furniture, except for a rented bed and little table that Kenneth had made in shop class at school. Gloria had to boil potatoes in a coffee pot because it was the only thing she had to cook in. Joyce Meyer has been preaching the Word for over 30 years, and the Copelands, more than 40 years. They have dedicated nearly a lifetime of labor to the Lord, and both of them had to forsake money to follow thier calling. I personally believe that they have earned and deserve a decent living.
I am always amazed at how the media is so concerned with the money. I have never once seen anyone on my TV reporting all the tireless good works that these people do, or all of the money that they give away. These are ministries who feed tens of thousands of starving people everyday, bring doctors and medicine to the poor, provide disaster relief all over the world, visit thousands of prisoners every year, minister to hundreds of people in nursing homes, take in thousands of orphans, provide homes for women who want out of prostitution, and financially support other ministies that serve those who are sick, homeless, and suffering…and that is just a partial list. As for the aircraft that the ministries own…don’t you think it would be just a little bit rediculous to expect them to be able to conduct world-wide business and missions on a donkey’s back? Furthermore, if the Meyers or the Copelands were selling smut on TV (for thier own personal gain) and making the kind of money that most entertainers make, the world would not only praise their “success”, but they would get an award for it!
The integrity of these two ministries is the very reason why we send them our money every month. We love knowing that we are bringing help to the hurting and the Gospel to the poor, the out-cast, and the shut-in. We are proud to be their partners, and I have to question why Senator Grassley or anyone else in Washington would feel the need to bypass the law and create a media spectacle.
God is good!
Mr. Black,
You need to examine the bible a little more closely. All of the people that had a covenant with God (the Abrahamic Covenant) were wealthy beyond measure. And they still are considered some of the wealthiest to ever live. Even God said he is extravagant. Personally I love the fact that God has blessed these ministeries with abundance and I will continue to support them. They are preaching the correct way to live as ordered by God himself. And I for one, am striving to do the same thing in my life because I’ve seen it work and its backed up by scripture, so I’d be stupid not to, not to mention going to hell!
Mr. Black, I ask for you to forgive me if anything I said offended you in my previous statement. That is what is so great about this country…we all don’t have to agree with the way each other thinks..or says..but we can speak freely without any concern of being hauled off to jail or prison for speaking out for what one believes. These are the rights that I as a citizen of this United States will do everything within my power to uphold and protect.
People can be outraged as much as they want. These 6 ministries have so much more treasure in Heaven than they can possibly imagine! These people have encouraged and taught me on my journey to know God better. Blessed are those who obey the Lord. All persecution in the name of Jesus is counted as JOY!!!
I am very disappointed to learn about Senator Grassley’s target of the churches.
I think that there are other charities who spend money given to them much worse than these ministries. If you want to check on how charities use their money, go to http://www.us.bbb.org This site is Better Business Bureau, and they have reports from many of the charities. For example check out the American Cancer Society. Total income for the reporting year was $431,400,000. Only 75% of the money they receive is spent on programs, 11% is spent on fund raising, and 14% is spent on administration. The cheif executive’s pay is listed as $1,101,119!! That means this person gets $3,016 per day if he/she works 365 days per year. I wonder what this person does to earn that kind of money. Many chief executives get great salaries.
You can check on Joyce Meyer there too. Believe me, she doesn’t get a million dollars per year!! 78% of the income is spent on programs, 5% is spent on fund raising, and 17% for administration. Total income listed in this report is $110,710,050. I have gone to Joyce Meyer’s web site to see what she gets per year, and I believe it was around $200,000. That is quiet different than what the American Cancer Society pays their Chief Executive.
Maybe Senator Grassley ought to look into some of these other charities. Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center pays their Chief Executive a high salary too. Is it all right for these people to recieve wonderful salaries, have nice homes., etc. but Christians are not allowed to have nice homes, cars, etc. ? What a double standard!! I wonder what Senator Grassley makes per year!! Hmmm! Isn’t he a public “servant”?
One way to cut our taxes would be to pay our Senators less. Do you think Congress will vote for that?? It might help the economy!
WOW!!! This is awesome!! GOD IS SO GOOD!!!! I am so happy to see the response that is being generated by people who have been helped by these ministries. My family and I watch and support all six of these ministries. All they are teaching is the Abrahamic Covenant, and that Jesus died on the cross to give us back everything Adam gave up in the Garden. God wants to enjoy our lives now!! What better way to pass this test of life. Thank you Lord for this website and for allowing an opportunity for everyone to be able to FREELY speak their minds without fear of retaliation. In Jesus Name . AMEN
biggsy: please remember that since the USA is not a theocracy, US tax laws regarding non-profit agencies trump anything from biblical scripture.
Mr. Black,
You are so blinded by your apparent hatred you can’t see truth standing next to you. KCM has invited the IRS to do an inquiry into there financial situation because they know that they are clean from ALL of the acusations that Senator Grassley and people like you are making.
I have been listening to Kenneth Copeland’s preaching for almost 30 years now and have never heard him preach anything that he didn’t back up with scripture including the prosperity message.
My suggestion to you is that you actually pray and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to you what is the truth about all of this and He will reveal to you what is true and right . I also suggest that you actually listen to Brother Kenneth with the same attitude of prayer and let the Holy Spirit reveal to you if what Brother Copeland is saying has truth to it. If you don’t want to do this then as far as I am concerned you are just another person blinded by Satan going around doing his will.
The last thing I would want in my life would be to find out that everything I believed was just another lie from the devil. So pray and seek the truth.
I was raised in a family of 7 children. My Dad had a disease that did not allow him to work after about age 40. We had a house that was paid for and food always on the table. God provided for us, because my parents were taught the principals of giving to God . I don’t know about all of these ministers but I do know about some of them. It seems Mr. Black has a problem with just Pentecostal ministers. Each man of God will have to answer to God, not Mr. Black. I think Mr. Black needs to take a hard look at his reasoning behind this. You might go after RELIGIONS that are supporting terroist groups, leave those that are serving Christ alone. Let each person pray about their support before they give. If they give not from pressure but from the heart, they don’t need you telling them.
I think most of you could reinforce your arguments more cogently if you simply trained your focus on the letter of US tax laws and nothing else.
Also, strawman arguments never work, either.
wonder how big glasseys home is? or what kind of assests he has aquired over the years thanks to all of our tax dollars? things that make you go hummm.
How much more can you focus on U.S. tax laws than by inviting the IRS to audit you? It seems clear to me that you are content with your own blindness.
Technically, Grassley’s permitted to acquire property with our tax dollars because those same tax dollars pay his congressional salary.
David Black, Which one of these ministries have been found guilty of breaking any tax laws? Although you did not say they were found guilty, you continue to imply such. Why do think that non-profits should be taxed? Non-profits would include homeless shelters, food banks, the United Way, Boyscouts, Habitat For Humanity, Meals On Wheels, etc. These are agencies that serve the community and give money to the poor and underprivleged, so I do not understand your reasoning. In fact, I would say that non-profits take many burdens off of the government and allow those who are able, to give directly to the cause. If we tax the church and other non-profits, we would destroy their ability to help the people who need it, and discourge donations. God and the people where here before the government. A smart government does not tear down it’s own foundations. I think it is wonderful that peolple use media resources to reach out to people with the love and hope of Jesus. I have heard many testimonies from people who were suicidal, imprisoned, cutting themselves, starving themselves and so-on, whose lives were healed because someone cared enough to spend the money to reach them through the airwaves. Observe the state of the people in any country on the planet where the government does not allow religious freedoms, and you will find horrific oppression, suffering, poverty and death in masive proportions. That is why so many people laid down their lives for religious freedom here in America. What makes you think that it is right for the government to systematicly destroy the church with a pencil, or to bypass the law in this case?
Let me tell you about what one of these ministries has done for me and for my family.
Last September my son got a roofing splinter in his hand that he could not see. Within a few days the splinter worked its way out of his hand, but not before a staphy infection developed. At 4:30 a.m. on Labor Day 2007 I drove him to the E.R. at a hospital in Shreveport that a friend had recommended and by noon he that day he had already had emergency surgery on his hand to clean out the infection that had spread to involve nearly all of the tissue of his left palm.
The day before, on Sunday morning, I was watching Eagle Mountain International Church on the internet (that is the Kenneth Copeland Ministry church located at the KCM headquarters near Ft. Worth) and submitted a prayer request for my son’s healing.
I tried to call the ministry on Monday before my son’s surgery, but they were closed for the holiday. The next afternoon, on Tuesday, I was visiting with my son at the hospital and the doctor had just left his room when my cell phone rang. It was one of the prayer ministers from Kenneth Copeland Ministries. She said she hoped it was all right to call on my cell phone as she was concerned about disturbing me at work. She told me she was calling bout my son, Paul. She called him by name and said she wanted to join me in praying for him - as I had requested. I told her that I was standing in his hospital room at that moment and that he had had to have emergency surgery the day before - I gave her the details of how bad the infection had been and explained that the doctor was going to do another surgery to see if he got all of the infection and to close up the incision they had made. I explained that my son had no medical insurance and that his injury was work-related, but that his employers were giving him a hard time about filing a workers compensation claim, etc. - telling him that Worker’s Comp would never pay. This lovely lady responded that everything was about to change, that God was going to ‘turn it around.” Then she asked me to put my hand on Paul’s hand while we prayed. I did that, but I also put her on speaker phone and she prayed that Paul’s hand would be completely healed and would be better than it was before the surgery and that God would see that his medical bills would be taken care of, etc. She said that there was about to be a turnaround in Paul’s life and circumstances and that Paul would enjoy the journey as God took him through that turnaround. Her call meant so much to my son. He was completely floored that the ministry responded so quickly to my emailed prayer request and that she called at just the right time to speak to both of us. He was greatly encouraged by what she said - which all came true, by the way.
One week later my son received a FREE copy of a 3-CD set of teachings that Gloria Copeland had done called “God Can Turn It Around.” Again, he was astounded. I wasn’t. I had previously received a free video from another of the KCM phone prayer ministers. I had been looking for a certain teaching and the lady I spoke with couldn’t tell me what it wasat that time (probably due to my bad description of it), but she found it later and sent a copy to me - FREE. In addition, I have also received the following FREE gifts from KCM: a copy of the “Pursuit of His Presence” devotional book; two sets of CDs of the 2005 Great Lakes Believers Convention (about 30 CDs of all 6 days of teachings) - one that they offered by mail to all of the persons who had attended the meeting and one they handed out at the 2007 Southwest Believer’s Convention (I kept the first one and gave the 2nd set to the man who drove one of the many FREE shuttle buses that picked convention attendees up at our hotels scattered around Ft. Worth); a FREE video of a sermon Reinhard Bonnke preached at Eagle Mountain International Church; a FREE set of DVDs of the two weeks of BVOV programs that featured Brother Copeland and Mike Huckabee talking about the Governor’s books on character; AND, last, but not least - a couple of sets of FREE Scripture cards. Right now I am waiting on a copy of Gloria’s new book, which I paid for, but which I am getting with a FREE copy of the DVD teaching curriculum that goes with the book, and which retails for $79.98! There were several other FREE items that they offered that I forgot to request. They are constantly giving things away for FREE!
In addition, every month I get a copy of their BVOV magazine - a subscription which is and always has been FREE. Both my son and my mother also receive FREE subscriptions and we all live at the same address!!!
This is not to even mention all that his ministry has done for me spiritually.
“Which one of these ministries have been found guilty of breaking any tax laws? Although you did not say they were found guilty, you continue to imply such.”
I support full and ongoing investigations of any non-profit organization fronted by administrators who are living opulently like for-profit corporate CEOs wearing thousand dollar custom tailored suits and flying in personal jets. if you can’t consider any possible ethical lapse there then you’ve been drinking too much kool-aid.
Tell why a supposedly humble and simple minister can’t buy an off the rack suit and travel business class like everyone else? What makes him so special?
Why does a minister have to place himself visibly in an economic class above his constituents?
Just because some people in America are performing altruistic deeds in the name of supernatural beings shouldn’t exonerate them from accountability.
I note the kool-aid drinkers hold one standard for ministers and another for politicians.
“God and the people where here before the government. A smart government does not tear down it’s own foundations.”
Irrelevant and a strawman to boot.
Let me remind you people that, again, the USA is NOT a theocracy.
Can you please cite one example where your PERSONAL religious freedom has been abridged?
You know that this sounds like to me? Libertarian whining about the alleged loss of freedoms in the wake of 9/11 with the Patriot Act.
I was not aware of this attack until I started hearing about it from Brother Copeland. I cannot believe this is happening and at first I wanted the rath of God to come down on these Senator’s. But through Brother Copeland and his teachings I instead pray that God will change their hearts. I also pray they read Proverbs 24:14-18. This is where God sent me to pray for them. I pray that they can see themselves in verse 15 and accept the change God has for their hearts. This needs to stop now. If this is not the website where I get this to the Senators then someone please help me and forward it to them.
Thank you
In Christian Love
Janet R Camp
Mr. Black,
You keep whining that the U.S. is not a theocracy. Yes you are right, but what we do have is the constitution which gives us religious freedom and this is where the actual “separation of church and state” was ment for, not to keep a local government from displaying a nativity scene.
As far as a ministry using private aircraft, I think you are clueless. The aircraft that the Copeland Ministry uses. Private donations were taken up so that the ministry could buy the particular aircraft that they have so that they can go anywhere in the world as needed. The same thing goes with the car that Creflo Dollar drives. His congregation took up special offerings to buy there Pastor a gift. The house that the Copelands live in belongs to the ministry and also houses visiting guest speakers or other guests of the ministry. These things are done in love and appreciation for these people not from them “skimming’ off of the ministry. If I decide to send my money to any ministry in this country I do it out of love not committment. If I want my money to buy a nice gift for a particular minister then I do it to bless that person not to set them on a pedistal.
You remind me of a person that only read the cliff notes to take a test. The more you talk the more you can tell YOU HAVEN’T READ THE BOOK! All you are doing is spreading jealousy and class envy around out of ignorance about a situation you know nothing about. It is between me and God where I decide to send my money and support, not finger pointers like you. If I send everthing I have to a ministry it’s my business not yours.
I have to go back to the first note I sent addressed to you. Pray and ask the Holy Spririt to reveal to you what is the truth. You remind me of the person spoke of in the Bible in Romans 1:22 where it says “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools” You seem to think you are so wise about all of this and those of us who are fully aware of what are donations go for can tell you don’t have a clue. I am aware enough to know where to send my money and where not to send it, but never the less it is none of your business.
My advice to you is to pray, read the Bible and stop making foolish acusations about things you are uninformed about.
The USA may not quote be “a theocracy” it is a republic and the member of that republic should represent the people who have put them in office. The power still resides in the people. The pepole put them in the people can have them removed.
Mr. Black please do not help santa with his work he is using you in a mighty way he want you to go to hell with him please do not follow him. You know santa do not have a brian, if he did, he would not have tryed God and got kick out of heaven.
Please STOP HELPING SANTA RIGHT NOW TODAY BEFORE IT’S TO LATE. If you don’t I pray that God himself will visit you in a way you will never forget. Oh! by the way God said in his HOLY WORD (BIBLE) that NO! goverment will stop his word for going forth it will and shall be preached through out this world and then and only then shall the son of God come back to get those who have stood for him.
I support these ministeries SANTA!!! because they are not telling people to rape, still, kill, rob, sell their body for money, leave their husband or wife, rape their son or daugther, blow up building with thousands of people in it no that’s you santa that’s you. And by the way they did not have jets in when Jesus was here on earth. Jesus himself said GREATER WORK’S WE SHALL DO.
Mr. Black ask God for understanding of his word so the devil want get you in trouble about God’s people that he Himself have call to do his work. PLEASE!!! Trust me you do not want HELL TO BE YOUR HOME!!! SANTA WILL USE ANYONE to help him to get his work done. please do not help him.
David Black, Dude, I was only trying to make you think about what you were saying. I thought that maybe you were misinformed. I will not engage in personal attacks with you. None of us oppose accountability, but we do oppose the unauthorized and prejudice manner in which this was done. You have already been made aware that the aircraft is property of the ministry, which has world-wide operations, and is not personal property of the preacher. I don’t have a problem with anyone’s clothes. I suppose I would want to dress nice too if I were on television, and I believe that God ( or the lack thereof ) and the people are very relevant to government, anywhere on earth. As for your last question - not yet.
I’m not exactly sure what the “kool-aid” remarks where suppose to mean, but if you are refering to communion, yes, I am in blood covenant with Christ Jesus, which actually is irrelevant, because the constitutional right to free exercise applies to all religions, and my personal salvation has absolutely nothing to do with the tax codes, ethics, or accountability related to Senator Grassley’s inquiry.
Peace.
Lisa: first of all, you limit your credibility sounding like a dopey skateboarder and addressing your elders as “dude.”
Secondly, the “kool aid” reference is popularized by conservative radio talk show host Sean Hannity and actually refers to the idiots in Rev. Jim Jones’ Guyana cult in 1978 who drank the poisoned kool aid because the reverend told them to. And yes, they all died as a result of this brainless gesture of supplication.
“Drinking the kool aid” then basically refers to anyone who unthinkingly adheres to a particular dogma without ever questioning or challenging its principles or practices.
This is what evangelicals represent to me. I invite you to read and comment on my latest blog entry (my name with this post is hyperlinked) and find out what I think of televangelists and the scams they run in the name of God.
As a Jew, I tale offense at the way Christian evangelicals attempt to publicly hijack the GOP and further their own agenda. People of ANY faith should keep to themselves and worship privately with their own. I despise public exhortations of any kind because religious observance should be a strictly private matter. It also has no place in politics.
I am pleased that many evangelicals support the State of Israel. However, their reasons for doing so are not based on common sense or reason but on a belief in ancient folk tales and myths.
Mr. Black,
After reading more of your Blog it gives me a lot of insight to your negative attitude and how miserable you seem to be with life in general. You do remind me of the bitter people that Obama speaks of.
You have made example of Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggert. These are people I can’t and won’t defend. They did give TV evangelism a bad name, but neither of them are any comparison to the Copeland ministry. I believe that Kenneth Copeland is one of the most honorable people in america and anyone who has met him or listened to him as much as I have don’t just think it they know it too. If you read his mission statement on his website and listen to him without trying to play “gotcha” to find something he says so you can twist it into something it wasn’t intended to be, then you might see what I’m talking about.
When Jesus gave what is now known as ” The Great Commision ” he said ” go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature” When I support KCM I also know that 10% of every dollar that comes into the ministry goes to support other ministries. One of those is the ministry of Rhienhart Bonke who ministers primarily in African nations. At one particular meeting of his there was recorded over one million salvations. A part of the money I send to KCM has a part in that and yes sir that does make me feel good. I stated to you once before that the more I hear you talk, the more I know that you haven’t read the book.
I respect your heritage as a Jewish person but may I also ad as my final statement to you that there is really only one sin that man will go to hell for. That sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ as there Lord and Saviour. If you reject him as your Lord then nothing else really matters.
David, The “dude” remark was an attempt to be peaceful and friendly, forgive me. There is a good possibility that I am older than you are, besides that, you are in no way my superior, and I don’t need or want your approval.
The Word of God is truth. The only dogma I have seen here is yours. In fact , you are starting to sound like an occult yourself. I knew what you were doing here from the begining, but I continued to draw you out for a reason. Your last post in particular is proof that you hate Christians. Speaking of common sense and reasoning, you have not validated one single accusation that you have made against any of these people, yet you continue to assert yourself as somehow intellectually supeior to the rest of us. So for lack of your own credibility, you are now trying to justify your hatred by associating all Christians with Jim Jones and refering to us as brainless subjects who should be denied representation and religious freedom. You want to litterally tax the food out of the mouths of the poor, force the church to subsidize the government, and publicly redicule Christains for believing their Bilble. Especially the ones who refuse your perverse mandate of their sub-standard social class of alms-begging in hand-me-downs.
You can not succeed at snaring me into your hate trap. I have all respect for the Jewish people, and I am not weak enough or stupid enough to stereotype them and persecute them ( under the guize of accountability ) as you have done to my brethren. Furthermore, the Torah is not a “folk tale”. You don’t live by your own scriptures, and you don’t want anyone else to either. Maybe you are the one who needs a “refesher” on the ten Commandments and the Bill Of Rights.
You could stand to take an honest look in the mirror while you’re at it.
My dear, I know you aren’t older than 60 years of age, because no one near that age —-unless they are old hippie freak remnants from Woodstock– use that term.
I don’t hate Christians. Whom I do despise are salvation quacks like televangelists who rob gullible people of their money and line their own pockets in order to build million dollar homes, wear expensive custom made suits, and fly personal jets. So long as some bush babies in Africa have a bowl of gruel to eat tomorrow it’s all hunky dory with you what goes on behind the scenes of these ministries.
The truly devout pray and read their bibles in private and without fanfare. They lead clean and decent lives without any need for anyone to tell them what to believe. They already know. Their tickets to heaven will still be punched even if they didn’t fork over their hard earned money to a smiling huckster waving a bible on TV.
You are not being denied any religious freedom. You sound like paranoid libertarians, of whom I also deeply despise and disrespect.
Again, you personally are not being targeted, so why do you care if some fat cat in a thousand dollar suit and a private jet is scrutinized for running a possible scam operation? You should be glad someone is taking the initiative, because certainly no one in their brainwashed kool aid drinking congregation would.
Let me add that I cannot respect anyone who doesn’t think for themselves and who isn’t skeptical of almost everything done in the name of humanity.
Ayn Rand once said that the world is choking from a glut of altruism. She was spot-on with that remark.
Mr Black,
How much money have you sent to any of these ministries? I’m sure I already know the answer. Since you probably haven’t sent one penny to any of them, why are you so worried about them. Those of us that support these ministries are happy with what we are doing.
What does it say about the person who has to pay to receive salvation?
nobody has to pay for salvation. all gifts are given as a love offering
you twist everything
“Love offering”?
That’s very funny.
I see reality for what it is, not for what I hope it could be like.
Duh… Personal imcome tax + church tax = double taxation for Christians!
Duh-huh… People don’t receive shareholder dividends or any other tangible beniftits in return for their FREELY GIVEN contibutions to support the church.
Duh…If my church is a target, then that would include me.
David, You should really take that look in the mirror, dude.
It’s bad enough that you continue to drum on allegations that you can not sustain, except for your own prejudice and ignorance. But now you have stooped to refering to starving children in Africa as “bush babies”.
May God have mercy on your soul.
“Personal imcome tax + church tax = double taxation for Christians!”
I know Christians and not one of them pays a “church tax.” I know Jews, Sikhs, and Buddhists who don’t pay any such tax. You need to stop making things up, or please cite the part of the US Tax Code that discusses this.
“People don’t receive shareholder dividends or any other tangible beniftits in return for their FREELY GIVEN contibutions to support the church.”
No, they just get hefty tax write offs on their federal returns for making charitable contributions. Funny, you didn’t know that, but you’ll then make such ridiculous statements as this:
“It’s bad enough that you continue to drum on allegations that you can not sustain, except for your own prejudice and ignorance.”
Pot/kettle argument, sweetie.
http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com
“After reading more of your Blog it gives me a lot of insight to your negative attitude and how miserable you seem to be with life in general. You do remind me of the bitter people that Obama speaks of.”
I am thankful that I have the clarity to perceive life as it actually is … a foul and festering sty where it’s survival of the fittest. Yet, I am comfortable with that reality. I was born to fight, so fighting the elements invigorates me and gives me a true sense of purpose. I get up every morning ready to do battle with something or someone, whether it’s stupid people on the street or some chump trying to cheat me out my money. Members of my family survived the Holocaust with the very same toughness and resolve. I’d be a rather pitiful specimen if I didn’t honor their memory by following their example.
Let me repeat … I see life for what it is, not for what I hope it could be like.
Obama, btw, is a pandering racist clown and deserves everything that’s said about him. Unfortunately, enough bleeding heart and guilt ridden white people will vote for him because they are gullible fools who cannot think with their cold rational minds. They think with their hearts, and the heart always lies.
David, go back and read your own words, right here in black and white.
You are the one who is demanding taxation on the church. Everyone gets to write off charitable contributions on their income tax, and your ignorance speaks for it’s self.
Do you even have a heart? Your head knowledge hasn’t held up very well for you either. Here’s a tip for you - your anger is displaced on the innocent. Allow me to remind you that tithing is taught from your own scriptures. Our brains are no more than a bodily organ, designed for specific functions. One day that grey-matter will feed the worms, but our souls will stand before God.
Jesus loves you, and He can give you hope, and a new heart. You may think that I am here to fight with you, but I am not.
You are making the mistake of equating the taxing of common citizens with the kind of taxation that ought to be levied on these charlatans running tax free scams in the name of Jaaaayyyy-zusssss!. You’re very confused about what you want to say here because you are so emotional and hysterical at the same time, feeling somewhat persecuted by an unwashed and unrepentant heathen Jew like me. Yes, I have horns, a forked tail, and cloven hooves for feet. Where’s that pitch fork of mine? ARRRGGGHHH!
Seriously, taxes paid by a legitimate for-profit INDUSTRY is not the same as filing personal income tax, but if you want to lump them together, it’s no different from what’s expected from most other Americans who run for-profit companies.
Just because your heart bleeds doesn’t mean you should be exempt from paying taxes.
Tithing is nonsense. Charity is slavery. Anyone that performs work for others deserves to be compensated.
Jesus loves me? Why? I didn’t ask him to love me.
David, Prove yourself.
We have already established the fact that the church is NOT a for-profit business. YOU lumped them together, not me. YOU singled out the church from any other religious organization, along with the poorest poeple in our society, and demanded taxation thinking that the rest of us are too stupid to do the math. The only thing I lumped together is your motives.
Ouote me where I spoke any word against your religion or anyone elses. If not me, then quote the person who did.
Tithing and charity are taught in your own scriptures, so if you choose to throw out those particular scriptures, that is between you and God. But make no mistake, He will not be mocked, and He is not blind.
I think it’s obvious who is confused here. You are the one who is desperatly throwing blind punches at starving babies, accusing the innocent, exploiting the dead, rebuking the Word of God and conveniently forgetting who said what.
FYI, you are not capable of intimidating me, so you might as well stop trying.
Jesus loves you because He is love. You don’t have compassion because you don’t have Him. God GAVE His only begotten son, born of a Jew, to get you. The free gift of salvation comes by the grace and mercy of God, and none of us deserve it.
The bottom line is this:
If you have the money to fly around in a private jet and wear custom tailored suits, then you have enough money to pay taxes like everyone else.
I can mock and throw punches at whomever or whatever I please.
I have compassion for my own flesh and blood and that’s it.
Evangelicals have in this thread proven to be shrill, pedantic, and lemming-like.
David, All of us have to pay taxes, including preachers, and you know that.
Yes, it is a free country, and you are free to have your opinion, and I am free to have mine. But this is a matter of injustice, not opinion.
All Christians practice evangelism. These particular ministries are actually non-denominational, bacause we don’t pick and choose scripture. There are no denominations in the Bible. All of these divisions within the body of Christ are man made.
God owns everything, and the streets are paved with gold where He lives. Does that make him evil? We all know this is about how to get the Christians’ money. You think it’s right to take it just because they have it, regardless of the fact that they don’t owe it. That’s just a civil form of stealing. If Senator Grassley’s inquiry were legitimate, he would not have needed to bypass legal protocol. Be careful of what you wish for. If the government is allowed to tax the church, the synagogue will be next.
I am so sorry for all of the pain that your family has suffered. My husband’s grandfather served in the army during WWI, and he rescued some of the Jewish people from out of the concentration camps. The people were starving to the point of death. His grandfather had a candy bar in his uniform pocket, and he gave it to a Jewish man thinking that he was helping him. But the man was so severly starved, that the candy bar actually killed him. My husband says his grandfather cried every time he told that story, and he could never erase the images of the horor all the days of his life. I can’t even imagine how painful those memories must be for the Jewish people.
My husband and I are both of American Indian descent, just like Copeland. Our people were slaughtered by the hypocrites too, and I personally believe the front row seats of hell are reserved for the hypocrites who have murdered the innocent in the name of The Lord. We live in the south, and some of the people here go to church on Sunday, and then come home and shoot at us, no joke. That’s why we don’t go to their churches. God doesn’t go to their church, so we don’t feel obligated to go there either. I get all of my Bible study at home, and we partner with these guys because they are authentic. I am thankful that someone thought that I was worth the expense of television, and I am not going to let the hypocrites and con-artists stop me from loving others or from going to heaven. I am not planning on spending eternity with evil people, and God isn’t going to ask me about any of them on my day of judgement. Jesus should come down here and sue about 50% of the Christians for identity theft.
David, I forgot to ask, what does pedantic & lemming-like mean? I’m not familiar with either of those words, and I can’t find them in my dollar store dictionary!
If it some kind of insult, I don’t care. I lost my reputation a long time ago.
“If the government is allowed to tax the church, the synagogue will be next.”
Fine by me, since I don’t attend synagogue nor do I wish for ANY religious organization that deals with monetary donations to be tax exempt.
“All Christians practice evangelism. ”
Wrong. I know people who say they are Christians who know enough to keep to themselves about their faith. They aren’t like annoying clerks in stores making pitches at customers who just want to be left alone to browse. Like you, for example.
“These particular ministries are actually non-denominational,”
Wrong. They represent the Pentecostal sect.
Your ancestors that roamed North America were aboriginal savages that lost whatever land they occupied because of their inferior level of technology and intelligence. The people that defeated them were not hypocrites. This is what the history of the world is comprised of, superior forces and cultures defeating inferior forces and cultures.
If you can’t figure out yet how to find the definitions of words on your own, then you deserve to be led by the nose by televangelists trading salvation for dollars.
David, If you had the whole Covenant of God, you would know about both the Great Commision and the Holy Ghost, who, by the way, just pulled your hood off.
I’m finished here.
6 men are called, but 7 shall go into the firey furnace.
You were finished a long time ago, sweetie, the moment you took your first sip of the kool aid.
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strengh, and honor, and glory, and blessing. Rev.5:12
I KNOW THY WORKS, AND TRIBULATION, AND POVERTY, ( BUT THOU ART RICH ) AND I KNOW THE BLASPHEMY OF THEM WHICH SAY THEY ARE JEWS, AND ARE NOT, BUT ARE THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN. Rev.2:9
These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Rev.17:13-14
And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Rev.16:16
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Rev.18:24
BEHOLD, I COME OUICKLY: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. Rev.22:7
He which testifieth these things saith, SURELY I COME QUICKLY. Amen. Even so, come Lord Jesus. Rev.22:20
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Rev.15:3
I finally figured out what Mr. Black likes to do. He reads our comments and then makes some outlandish come back just to goad us on. He enjoys stirring us up because it gives him a laugh. Maybe he believes what he says - maybe he doesn’t. Irregardless, he is playing with all of us and then he takes our comments back to his site and “plays” with them. Have you noticed he is the only antagonist that says anything. No other person gets on this site. Maybe we should take our comments to his site and bombard it with the truth. We could get a lot of the people who read it to really start wondering what the truth really is.
By the way, the people who drank the “kool-aid”, many of them were forced to do so by gun point.
“By the way, the people who drank the “kool-aid”, many of them were forced to do so by gun point.”
And also from the end of a sword during the Crusades, let’s not forget that.
Please, bombard my blog with as many comments as you like. I welcome all comers. Just remember that comments are moderated, so there will be a delay. I only delete posts with foul language.
I’m not playing anything. This is EXACTLY how I think about things and I believe it needs to be said.
AND WHAT I SAY UNTO YOU I SAY UNTO ALL, WATCH. Mark13:37
FOR MANY SHALL COME IN MY NAME, SAYING, I AM CHRIST; AND SHALL DECEIVE MANY. Mark13:6
FOR FALSE CHRISTS AND FALSE PROPHETS SHALL RISE, AND SHALL SHEW SIGNS AND WONDERS, TO SEDUCE, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, EVEN THE ELECT. Mark13:22
BUT HE SHALL RECEIVE AN HUNDREDFOLD NOW IN THIS TIME, HOUSES, AND BRETHREN, AND SISTERS, AND MOTHERS, AND CHILDREN, AND LANDS, WITH PERSECUTIONS; AND IN THE WORLD TO COME ETERNAL LIFE. Mark10:30
AND YE SHALL BE HATED OF ALL MEN FOR MY NAME’S SAKE: BUT HE THAT SHALL ENDURE UNTO THE END, THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED. Mark13:13
BUT WHEN THEY SHALL LEAD YOU, AND DELIVER YOU UP, TAKE NO THOUGHT BEFOREHAND WHAT YE SHALL SPEAK, NEITHER DO YE PREMEDITATE: BUT WHATSOEVER SHALL BE GIVEN YOU IN THAT HOUR, THAT SPEAK YE: FOR IT IS NOT YE THAT SPEAK, BUT THE HOLY GHOST. Mark13:11
AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE; IN MY NAME SHALL THEY CAST OUT DEVILS; THEY SHALL SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES; Mark16:17
BUT HE THAT SHALL BLASPHEME AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST HATH NEVER FORGIVENESS, BUT IS IN DANGER OF ETERNAL DAMNATION: Mark3:29
WATCH YE AND PRAY, LEST YE ENTER INTO TEMPTATION. THE SPIRIT TRULY IS READY IS READY, BUT THE FLESH IS WEAK. Mark14:38
And Jesus answering saith unto them, HAVE FAITH IN GOD. Mark11:22
THE QUEEN OF THE SOUTH SHALL RISE UP IN THE JUDGEMENT WITH THE MEN OF THIS GENERATION, AND CONDEMN THEM: FOR SHE CAME FROM THE UTMOST PARTS OF THE EARTH TO HEAR THE WISDOM OF SOLOMON; AND, BEHOLD, A GREATER THAN SOLOMON IS HERE. Luke11:31
TAKE HEED THEREFORE THAT THE LIGHT WHICH IS IN THEE BE NOT DARKNESS. Luke11:35
BUT IF I WITH THE FINGER OF GOD CAST OUT DEVILS, NO DOUBT THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS COME UPON YOU. Luke11:20
David Black, In the name of Jesus I command you to come forth and prove yourself.
Poor Lisa, she’s again very hysterical and mixed up. She can’t decide whether she wants to be “done” with me (as written in a previous post) or scream at me in CAPS.
Then, like any hysterical woman who isn’t being listened to, she “commands” me, almost imitating that scene from The Exorcist with Max von Sydow and Linda Blair.
Sorry to disappoint, my dear, but my head isn’t spinning 360 degrees. I also won’t be levitating out of my bed or spitting out green pea soup, either, as a result of your incantations.
Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Exodus23:20
For how can I endure to see the evil that shall come to my people? or how can I endure to see the destruction of my kindred? Esther8:6
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. Exodus15:3
I like how you’ve shifted emphasis to the old testament, thinking that the folk tales of my ancestors would make any difference in my thinking.
What are you going to command me to do next?
And after that I looked,and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: Rev.15:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Rev.21:5
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev.12:11
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev.14:7
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev.12:12
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. Rev.22:21
And, consistent with your gender, you must have the last word. Have at it!
Senator Grassley needs to learn to respect the Constitution which seperates church and state granting a special status to religious institutions. He should also be careful not to persecute what he doesn’t understand: in his case sadly and obviously, the Bible. Should he chance to actually read it from cover to cover -as opposed to taking certain sections to his liking out of context - he will find that it is full of scriptures that support financial prosperity for the Believer! There is no limit to the wealth God has for us - spiritual as well as physical. And spiritually, I venture to say ,that by attacking these ministries, he is putting himself into a somewhat precarious position! God protects his servants!
These ministries need and have our prayer. Perhaps we should add Senator Grassley to this list since he needs it to a greater extent.
There is something that bothers me greatly about Senator Grassley’s attitude toward those of us who supports these six ministries. He has the audacity to give the impression that we are all mindless zombies or worse who cannot think for ourselves. If we are so mindless and can’t think for ourselves, how could we possibly vote for honest, intelligent, capable and discerning men and women to run this Country? What does that say about these people holding these offices and their integrity? I have lived far too long to need anyone telling me I am not wise enough to know a scam. That is why there are many of these people who hold Offices that have never gotten one of my votes. That is the greatest insult the Senator or anyone else has attempted to dump on those of us who support these ministries. It just shows how arrogant these people are and the best way to settle the issue is vote them out of office and be rid of them.
“Senator Grassley needs to learn to respect the Constitution which seperates church and state granting a special status to religious institutions.”
Ursula, please, set aside your emotional hysteria for a moment and find in the Constitution the part where religious institutions are granted special status.
Please, cite the Article number and section number.
“I have lived far too long to need anyone telling me I am not wise enough to know a scam. ”
Obviously, Cricket, you aren’t very wise at all, because you fail to include televangelists in the category of scammers.
Tell me, why is it that you can’t worship and pray in private or with a small congregation that isn’t operating a tax free million dollar scam that included private jets and lavish homes financed by donations?
Wouldn’t doing so achieve the same desired results from being a person of faith?
Tell me how your place in heaven is going to be compromised if you don’t line the pockets of these hucksters?
Do you ever really think about what you do or do you just follow blindly?
No, David, we can’t worship and pray in private because God commands us to do otherwise.
Cricket, I don’t find your answer genuine at all, but contrived for expediency’s sake.
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, IT IS FINISHED: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. John19:30
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, RECEIVE YE THE HOLY GHOST; John20:22
Then said Jesus to them again, PEACE BE UNTO YOU: AS MY FATHER HATH SENT ME, EVEN SO SEND I YOU. John20:21
This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin. John19:20
Lisa: are you capable of one moment’s independent thought, or are you always sounding like this pre-programmed robot with no mind of their own?
As he spake these words, many believed on him. John8:30
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YE CONTINUE IN MY WORD, THEN ARE YE MY DISCIPLES INDEED; John8:31
AND YE SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE. John8:32
They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? John8:33
Jesus answered them, VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, WHOSOEVER COMMITTETH SIN IS THE SERVANT OF SIN. John8:34
AND THE SERVANT ABIDETH NOT IN THE HOUSE FOR EVER: BUT THE SON ABIDETH EVER. John8:35
IF THE SON THEREFORE SHALL MAKE YOU FREE, YE SHALL BE FREE INDEED. John8:36
I KNOW THAT YE ARE ABRAHAM’S SEED; BUT YE SEEK TO KILL ME, BECAUSE MY WORD HATH NO PLACE IN YOU. John8:37
I SPEAK THAT WHICH I HAVE SEEN WITH MY FATHER: AND YE DO THAT WHICH YE HAVE SEEN WITH YOUR FATHER. John8:38
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, IF YE WERE ABRAHAM’S CHILDREN, YE WOULD DO THE WORKS OF ABRAHAM. John8:39
BUT NOW YE SEEK TO KILL ME, A MAN THAT HATH TOLD YOU THE TRUTH, WHICH I HAVE HEARD OF GOD: THIS DID NOT ABRAHAM. John8:40
YE DO THE DEEDS OF YOUR FATHER. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. John8:41
AND TRULY THE SON OF MAN GOETH, AS IT WAS DETERMINED: BUT WOE UNTO THAT MAN BY WHOM HE IS BETRAYED! Luke22:22
And when he was at the place, he said unto them, PRAY THAT YE ENTER NOT INTO TEMPTATION. Luke22:40
And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, IT IS ENOUGH. Luke22:38
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, JOHN INDEED BAPTIZED WITH WATER; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Acts11:16
And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I AM JESUS OF NAZARETH, WHOM THOU PERSECUTEST. Acts22:8
BUT RISE, AND STAND UPON THY FEET: FOR I HAVE APPEARED UNTO THEE FOR THIS PURPOSE, TO MAKE THEE A MINISTER AND A WITNESS BOTH OF THESE THINGS WHICH THOU HAST SEEN, AND OF THOSE THINGS IN THE WHICH I WILL APPEAR UNTO THEE; Acts26:16
TO OPEN THEIR EYES, AND TO TURN THEM FROM DARKNESS TO LIGHT, AND FROM THE POWER OF SATAN UNTO GOD, THAT THEY MAY RECEIVE FORGIVENESS OF SINS, AND INHERITANCE AMONG THEM WHICH ARE SANCTIFIED BY FAITH THAT IS IN ME. Acts26:18
FOR I AM WITH THEE, AND NO MAN SHALL SET ON THEE TO HURT THEE: FOR I HAVE MUCH PEOPLE IN THIS CITY. Acts18:10
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, JOHN INDEED BAPTIZED WITH WATER; BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST. Acts11:16
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: Acts8:15
BUT YE SHALL RECEIVE POWER, AFTER THAT THE HOLY GHOST IS COME UPON YOU: AND YE SHALL BE WITNESSES UNTO ME BOTH IN JERUSALEM, AND IN ALL JUDEA, AND IN ALL SAMARIA, AND UNTO THE UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH. Acts1:8
And he said unto them, IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW THE TIMES OR THE SEASONS, WHICH THE FATHER HATH PUT IN HIS OWN POWER. Acts1:7
But the Lord said unto him, GO THY WAY: FOR HE IS A CHOSEN VESSEL UNTO ME, TO BEAR MY NAME BEFORE THE GENTILES, AND KINGS, AND THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL: Acts9:15
Jesus answered, VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO THEE, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. John3:5
THAT WHICH IS BORN OF THE FLESH IS FLESH; AND THAT WHICH IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT IS SPIRIT. John3:6
THE WIND BLOWETH WHERE IT LISTETH, AND THOU HEAREST THE SOUND THEREOF, BUT CANST NOT TELL WHENCE IT COMETH, AND WHITHER IT GOETH: SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT. John3:8
“FOR I HAVE MUCH PEOPLE IN THIS CITY.”
I don’t see how, in this day and age, that anyone can read the KJV and endure that grammatic train wreck of a translation.
I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FIRST AND THE LAST. Rev.22:13
AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE; IN MY NAME SHALL THEY CAST OUT DEVILS; THEY SHALL SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES; Mark16:17
For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: Luke4:10
And Jesus answered and said unto him, GET THEE BEHIND ME, SATAN: FOR IT IS WRITTEN, THOU SHALT WORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD, AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOU SERVE. Luke4:8
WHERE THEIR WORM DIETH NOT, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. Mark9:48
MARVEL NOT THAT I SAID UNTO THEE, YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN. John3:7
Lisa: I know it might be an intellectual challenge for you, but try formulating your own ideas and thoughts for a change. It will offer the impression that you actually possess a mind, instead of a pre-formatted hard drive that performs a GIGO type function.
There are ministries who distort the Word and use it as a means to
their own ends. They use fear and bullying tactics to extort money from their
followers in order to fund the lavish lifestyles that the devil has convinced
them God “owes” them. They are being investigated because both Christians AND the secular media have serious questions about what they perceive as abuses of their positions. It may very well be they are doing nothing wrong
- but the more some defy the federal government, the media and others, the more conclusions will be drawn.
But ask yourself this … Did Jesus beg, plead and extort money from His
followers? Did he live in a huge mansion on the shores of the Sea of Galilee?
Did He travel from place to place on a gold-plated chariot? Did He revel in His
own self-proclaimed stardom? Was He egotistical and self-righteous? Of course
not … That’s what the Pharisees were, and that’s what some of these “ministers” are.
For nearly 10 years I attended a church that supported many of these ministries. After awhile, it was clear to me that the heresy, egoism and CONSTANT appeals for money wasn’t just a televangelist thing. It’s a local thing as well.
God’s truth WILL prevail.
Lisa
Forget about this guy “David Black” I think he is just a lost cause. He is stuck in the land of negativity and he doesn’t want out.
Lisa looked in her bible and realized that she ran out of quotes she could cut and paste
I live in a land of reality. You people, on the other hand, occupy fantasy worlds comprised of folk tales, myths, and superstition.
David, I guess we will see about that when the messiah (Jesus) comes
Don’t hold your breath waiting.
Lisa Logan, Wes Mapes, Cricket and few others ………….Well said!!!!!!!!
Let me just add here,
I work for the federal government, I have personally worked with team agents, tax attorneys, and IRS commissioners who have investigated each ministry with fine lines. ALL SIX ministries have passed the IRS codes, policies, and laws with extremely High numbers!
I can say this: And I am only giving financial estimates and not the exact amount for privacy reasons.
1. Mr. Copeland: was a businessman before he was called to ministry ( i have looked at the Texas Department of labor records). He is a minister but also a business entrepreneur ( he has his own publishing company for his books, etc). Every financial statement record has shown he has not spent any ministry resources for his own personal use ( that includes, plane, car, his wardrobe, his family, and his home farm ranch). KC has given over 5 millions dollars and counting last year alone to Hurricane Katrina victims, Darfur, Children orphan homes, and to the homeless in the state of Texas. Which the government in some cases has failed to do! He has provided 200 people with good employment and benefits ( which again the government is lacking in).
2. Paula White- Is a business entrepreneur ( she owns the rights to all of her material, ( books, etc., she owns property, she is a real estate developer, etc), which is totally separate from her ministry. Paula White in 2007 gave over an estimate of 4 million dollars from her own personal funding to Hurricane Katrina victims, she gave needy families and single parents new homes, etc, Her ministry feeds over 2 million people overseas ( Africa, Haiti, South America, Israel) and double the amount in the US for the homeless.
3. Benny Hinn- ( has the largest world wide feed the hungry ministry), in 2007 over 20 million dollars was given those in need in the USA, double that amount to his orphanage villages for children all over the world. Financial records of Benny Hinn Ministries have been proven that he has not spent any ministry resources for his own personal use.
4. Creflo Dollar- I personally think he takes the most unfair attacks because of his last name. However, He is one of the most successful businessmen named by CNN, Forbes, etc. ( real estate, property management, his own Christian record label, etc), which has nothing to do with his ministry or World Changers Church International. In the span of one year Creflo Dollar ministries has given 17 million dollars for people in need, he has provided shelter centers for the homeless, and children in need in his city and all over the world.
5. Joyce Myer- Has given over an estimate of 23.3 millions dollars to charity organizations. as business woman, She owns all rights to her New York times Best selling books. Joyce Myer ministries, has started homeless and shelter center for children who are abused, she is a huge sponsor for an organization called mercy http://www.mercyministries.org/. She fully complied with senator Grassley request however, it seems that was not good enough. Joyce Myer, has only then refused to give grassley anymore information. Which in my opinion is wise. If he wants any further information he needs to through the IRS.
6. Eddie Long- Forbes, Black Enterprise, CNN, MSNBC, has named him one of America’s influential leaders. Black Enterprise and Forbes names one of America’s best religious business leaders. He owns, property, real estate, Entertainment Company, record label, etc. Before Eddie Long was called to the ministry he was Chief Marketing VP at Ford and Honeywell. He was doing real well financially, later he was called to the ministry, left a extremely high paying salary job position to work full time to serving man kind.
With a congregation of 35,000 faithful and strong members and still growing, his flock means business, (literally), the congregation (not eddie long) has started their own Credit Union Bank, they have bought property, land, etc. they started their own whole food grocery store called Harvest whole Food Market. On their 250 plus acres, they are building a new facility for both their youth ministry and well known Christian School that has gotten excellent educational rankings State department of Education from pre K- 12th grade. As well as Senior saint housing development, and State of the art Theater and performing art center………..They are taking simple bible principals, and living by it.
Last Year New Birth Church open there doors to Atlanta’s Latino community. New Birth Latino Church, is growing strong in record numbers. He has built over 50 homeless shelter centers, that not only feed, but develop, educate, lead, teach career trades for the homeless, he is building state of the art breast cancer centers, in 2007 Mr. Long, alone has given more than 5 million dollars in his County , not state, not country but county in which he lives and where New Birth Church is located. He has given over 300 hundred thousand dollars to Atlanta Dekalb County Public schools alone. We won’t even talk about his brand new maternity hospital in Kenya Africa ( who service widow mothers, and HIV mothers) as well as the eddie long HIV/AIDS medical center. Single parents support organization, breast cancer and HIV/AIDS 5k walk/run. The list goes on, I was flabbergasted to find out how much money this man has given to others in need persoanlly and how much the members of new birth church has given in one span alone. ( which I can not say) and how much he is dedicated to sharing the gospel in truth with the world wide.
So before anyone points their fingers and starts making assumptions or unfair comments, at these six leaders, let’s look at the facts. These men and women deserve more than a selfish unjust attack on their character, but an medal of honor for their compassion, love for God’s people, and service to all walks of life.
As an employer of the federal government I am very disappointed in Senator Grassley’s continued attempt to attack good ministers, when we have given numerous IRS reports on these six ministers for the past two years. Going to the media to exploit these ministers unjustly was not necessary ! All he had to do was pick up the phone, and request their records.
Now it is strange, that these same six leaders went to the white house, to speak and fight on the behalf of middle class and poor america, proverty, hurricane Katrina victims, and HIV/AIDS funding, racial injustice in our justice system and domestic violence. Two leaders I know for a fact have been called to the white house for personal counsel from former presidents.
Now , why would White House and Congress honor these leaders if they knew they were dishonest? Any person who comes to the white house or speak on any senate floor, they have to go through a extensive background check and investigation, so why didn’t senator Grassley call the white house Administrations for their records?
Again, Grassley knows protocol, but he refuses to accept the fact that these ministers are indeed honest, all because his and few others personal disliking.
How you preach and your style of preaching is irrelevant, as long as the message of Jesus Christ is the same and taught with clarity and in content.
TO MAI,
I agree with you 100%
I also work for the federal government but in non-profit organizations, and senator Grassley character speaks volumes to all believers after this uncalled for, unfair, invasion of privacy and religious freedom. I have lost all respect for Mr. Grassley to the point, I resigned from his campaign. He knows protocol. He knows all he has to do is call IRS. He knows this! He is so busy making sure his campaign buddies like Rusty Leonard who is the number leader behind the entire dirty political plot remains happy.
This is funny, ONLY six good leaders get attacked, who speak and stand firmly on the family unity, or who speak well on claiming your inheritance, economic empowerment, etc. But yet these REAL WOLVES, get the free pass? Poverty is a curse people. I don’t care what anyone says. The greatest investment I have ever made was investing in the Kingdom of God. I am living in my harvest now. While others are confused and running amuck to others on what to do about this economy, I live in total peace. (of course people like david black, won’t understand this principal, and you can’t expect them to, the bible says he hides his secrets to those that are not His) I don’t want to go to a church , or sit under any leadership for that matter, and they are speaking a enslaved message to keep people in bondage.
Who said that we can’t have the finer things in life? Why can’t Christians live well? who said you had to be poor to help the poor? How can a poor man help another poor man? So of course economical resources and funding will be needed. Who ever said the gospel was free lied? salvation is free, and even in that, it cost Jesus Christ his life. It takes MONEY to spread the message of Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth. Don’t be Silly. If Wal-Mart can spend 6 billion dollars to take its Brand and Imagine to the world, then why can’t we do the same or even more for spreading better brand name, none other than Jesus Christ in excellence.
I am so glad, that the changing of the guards is here saints. I know its been rough for us in the past two years, with all the media attacks and mockery. BUT the turning point is here. LOOK, Discern in the spirit realm to what is happening in the earth. I also notice the more they attack the people of God, the more God continues to elevate us, ( and those six leaders). He open doors for them to walk through where many have not gone before. So who cares, what others think, Just because senator grassley, and others don’t like them or their style of delivery in which they bring the gospel, doesn’t mean its wrong or determines their blessing.
To Lisa Logan, Cricket, and Mai,
Yes, come to think about , it does make you ask questions? This whole ordeal and investigation is very fishy and indeed a exposure of dirty politics at its best. How is it, that Christians are expected to be silent, dumb, be poor, not intelligent, always begging, no business mentality, no power or authority, but yet these Hollywood stars and music artists, who live filthy rich off of exploiting women, talking about who they slept with, and confusing our children, with illicit sexual lyrics with out apology? WHERE IS SENATOR GRASSLEY’S LETTER AND REQUEST TO INVESTIGATE THIS?
No offense to any Catholics, when I say this… But why hasn’t senator Grassley OR HIS CAMPAIGN BUDDIES investigated some of the catholic priests who abuse their calling, and take advantage of and prey on children? Senator Grassley did not come on the news or write a letter, requesting to see the pope’s financial statements, He was not complaining how the POPE comes to America in grand style, with 747 fully loaded airplanes, a ray of body guards, CIA, FBI, and the military guarding AND GREETING him on a plush lavish red carpet. No one said anything about his massive presidential treatment, HIS GOLDEN WARDROBE MADE WITH THE FINEST FABRIC, OR every news station in this country stopped their daily news broadcast to cover the pope’s arrival in America, etc.
But yet, when six harmless leaders challenge the US government to take better care of their own people, instead of mismanaging the money, or actually waking the body Christ up, with realistic, no nonsense, but a loving and compassionate bible message, then all hell breaks loose? Please don’t get me started. Grassley will reap the confusion he has sown!!! He better go somewhere and sit down. Because the same method you use to try to attack someone else, will be same methods and much more to come back on you. The Kingdom will not be silent, ignorant to the plots of the enemy, anymore. God is equipping us with great ingenuity skills, organizational skills, administration skills, business skills, Great and Godly worldwide leadership, increasing our faith to a more radical faith and intelligence to over turn and change governments.
David Black be quiet!
I am 15 years old, please don’t tell me you are 60 or even an adult for that matter? As a teenager this is one of the reasons why I have a hard time respecting adults who sound and think like you or senator grassley. You have some sort of personal vengeance against one church and one minister who did you wrong years ago, and now ALL ministers who live above poverty, or walking in wealth is your enemy or stealing from the people. Get a grip! I find it very strange, for you to give any comment when you have neither gone to their churches or gave to their ministries. And they say the older you get the wiser you become, well I would think at 60 you would have a little wisdom. But yet you are on a computer playing pre-school sandbox games and throwing tactics at people who have done nothing but operate in their constitutional right, and respectfully disagree with you and challenge your comments. The only thing you said so far was people need to pay their taxes.. as if you said something that was brand new or to insinuate that these ministers or Christians don’t. They are right your personal biases toward ministers who refuse to live in poverty is absolutely ignorant, considering you don’t know the facts.
And please leave the Tax speech, the sarcastic comments, in the dog pound, Leave your tax speech to the professionals. Just because you do your own taxes does not mean you know everything there is about the IRS law and policies.
and how old did you say you were again? Instead of fighting people on here, how about you use that same energy to protest about AARP, Medicare health care coverage that is lacking in this country fro senior citizens. Why aren’t you outraged on how these insurance companies and billion dollar drug companies are living very well off tax paying dollars or why aren’t you in outraged over how healthcare is a luxury in this country instead of necessity?
The same leaders you are attacking are the same leaders who have provided congress with a plan to help those in crisis in this country for as health care coverage. I love Paula White, Eddie Long, and Joyce Myers, TD Jakes and Others who don’t mind fighting the good fight of faith, but is also intelligent enough to run successful business companies, and have so much compassionate to help those that are either struggling their faith or their pockets. You are acting Just like a Pharisee. So busy laying down the tax law but yet you fail follow it yourself. I don’t see you living in the poor house. With your behavior, you have demonstrated on here, You don’t deserve to be respected let along trying to demand it from people.
Listen folks don’t pay david black any attention. Don’t even waste your breathe trying to hold an intelligent and respectful debate or conversation. That is only for the mature people.
to solve all of this, I say be careful who you vote in office.
Wake up people. Don’t be fooled by the hype..
All these pharisees in office has got to go!
I say VOTE Grassley RIGHT OUT OF OFFICE. and expose the rest of these jokers who are playing dirty politics under the table. I can’t wait until november comes, I going to make sure he feels my voting strike against him.
I agree to solve this problem, VOTE grassley and others like him out of office and expose Rusty Lenard who is the leading snake and pharisee behind this plot. I also believe that some of the gay activist, and other jealous leaders are behnd this as well.
VOTE HIM and these other snakes out of office. we have the power people, use it during election time in november.
David Black , this will be first and last comment to you. Sorry, man, I don’t have the patience or tolerance for low minded people. You are contradicting yourself in your comments. Please go back and re-read them if you will. It all comes down to this, You are a bitter man, whom one church, years ago has hurt you and now you are spewing your hate and rage on all churches and leaders, well that’s how it appears to me when I read your comments. while do apologice if you have been hurt by a certain cleryman or church, I do not agree with your method of attacks on innocent ministers. You are spewing your own personal biases as others have said, without even considering the facts. You have not stated one fact or report to justly prosecute them for any personal tax invasions or breaking any laws and policies on non-profit guidelines, laws, regulations with the IRS, neither can senator grassley. I work for the government too, so I personally checked on this matter since my pastor Paula white was falsely accused of these hennas crimes and false allegations that the senator has stated in his letter. I have checked for myself and all six ministers are within good standards with the IRS.
I must say we have to be very careful who we vote into office just because they say they are a Christian. I am all for holding someone accountable, however who is holding people like Senator Grassley and others accountable who cater toward people’s devious plots or acts, just to keep naysayers happy at the same time making sure there campaign bank account is full, not to mention keeping their nice seat in the senate?
GO TO THE POLLS IN NOVEMBER and VOTE PEOPLE! GET THESE PEOPLE OUT OF OFFICE.
edited message by Jake:
David Black , this will be first and last comment to you. Sorry, man, I don’t have the patience or tolerance for low minded people. You are contradicting yourself in your comments. Please go back and re-read them if you will. It all comes down to this, You are a bitter man, whom one church, years ago has hurt you and now you are spewing your hate and rage on all churches and leaders, well that’s how it appears to me when I read your comments. while do sincerely apologize if you have been hurt by a certain clergyman or church, I do not agree with your method of attacks on innocent ministers. You are spewing your own personal biases as others have said, without even considering the facts. You have not stated one fact or report to justly prosecute them for any personal tax invasions or breaking any laws and policies on non-profit guidelines, laws, regulations with the IRS, neither can senator grassley. I work for the government too, so I personally checked on this matter since my pastor Paula white was falsely accused of these hennas crimes and false allegations that the senator has stated in his letter. I have checked for myself and all six ministers are within good standards with the IRS.
I must say we have to be very careful who we vote into office just because they say they are a Christian. I am all for holding someone accountable, however who is holding people like Senator Grassley and others accountable who cater toward people’s devious plots or acts, just to keep naysayers happy but at the same time making sure there campaign bank account is full, not to mention keeping their nice seat in the senate?
GO TO THE POLLS IN NOVEMBER and VOTE PEOPLE! GET THESE PEOPLE OUT OF OFFICE.
Wow, Doug Wead needs to find more to write about here.
It’s looking rather dull around these parts. Certainly he and his evangelical brethren have something to complain about these days?
Correction: It should read “something ELSE to complain about.”
I’m still waiting for someone to describe how their personal ability to worship has been abridged.
The idea that there is not “religious freedom in America” is a farce.
Well, I resent the media and politicians dictating to me what I should believe and to whom I should give my money. The media has sold its soul to commercialism and they have the nerve to lecture us because we want to give to a ministry?
And then this Baptist Senator reminds me of the well intentioned Baptists in Texas who sent their church buses and used their positions in government to try to “save” those poor Mormons and take away their children and put them in good “Baptist” homes. Why can’t Baptists leave others alone? We don’t bother them.
Leave the Pentecostals alone.
I for one, appreciate this site and what Doug Wead and others are doing. See.
http://www.dougwead.com/doug_wead_biography.html
And obvisouly Reagan did too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkYKEdOTQN8
Jews, Catholics, Church of Scientology, I don’t care who else, they all need to be protected by the First Ammendment. God save us from activist Senators who want to save us. Let him investigate his own church.
Proverbs 23:9
Proverbs 26:4
Proverbs 28:26
Mr. Black, why don’t we allow the Senator to come into YOUR home or business and investigate your business practices? Why don’t we send him into the home or business of every newspaperman, reporter, News anchor, and editor in the country? Why? Because that is the business of the IRS, and they have done it well, as we all know. The reason that any Senator or any other person in this country is not to be allowed to use his power in this way is because it opens the door to religious persecution, and this kind of power has been used over and over again in ages past to persecute people who believed differently from those in power! This is what is happening now, and why would you be proud of that?
Also, your comment about only referencing the US Constitution and not scripture
is rediculous from the outset, since the US Constitution is BASED on scripture! Not only that, but any human that puts any institution above God is playing with his own eternity. I feel sorry that you seem to insist on only being able to think from the basis of the indoctrination you have received from your Liberal education.
Anyone from the government is free to investigate me or my financial holdings at anytime. I have nothing to hide.
“Also, your comment about only referencing the US Constitution and not scripture
is rediculous from the outset, since the US Constitution is BASED on scripture! ”
What’s “rediculous” (sic) is your assertion that the US Constitution is based on scripture. What scripture would that be exactly, trisha L?
Funny that a holy roller nutjob as yourself would accuse someone else of being indoctrinated.
Wow, a number of my posts to this blog have been deleted. I wonder why.
You would think that people imbued with a feeling of security that arrives with submitting to mythical powers could handle any adversity.
It seems that people who need leaders to get them through life are the most insecure and therefore, pathetic.
I can see now that whether it’s evangelicals or Ron Paulnuts, there’s always a wacko fringe to appropriate and exploit for personal gain. Perhaps there are self-made powerbrokers imbued with their own messianic complex that seek out the most weak in order to provide them with a sense of self-efficacy they can’t provide for themselves.
What do you think, Doug? Does this describe your mission when you aren’t playing the role of presidential historian?